Chapter 5

The Interviews

For this chapter, I interviewed three respected American Indians and the American Indian drum group "Oyate Ota". I went out of my way to ask them questions that were submitted to me from different focus groups within the scouting community. I decided on this approach so that you, the reader, could attain answers to questions, not just from my point of view, but from the view of American Indian people who have first hand knowledge. It is my honest hope that their answers will have an impact on your opinions of their culture.

Of all of the surveys that I sent out, 41 were returned to me. In those surveys I only asked 3 questions:

1) What question would you most like to ask An American Indian?

2) What are you most interested in learning from an American Indian Drum?

3) What things about the American Indian culture are you most interested in learning about?

Some surveys had only a couple of questions on them while other Scouters wrote so many that they needed to use the blank space on the back of the paper. I tried to use a cross section of both younger and older scout's questions.

The responses are listed on the next page with the most frequently asked questions in each category at the top.

1) What Question would you most like to ask An American Indian?

Please discuss the difference between the modern American Indian vs. our historical image of an American Indian (6)
Do you prefer to be called Native American or American Indian? (5)
Do people still speak your tribal language? (2)
Do you feel good or insulted when you see a non-Indian portraying an Indian, even if their intentions are honorable? (1)
Do you think that Casinos are fair to all Indians? (1)
What is the Significance of War Bonnets and should Boy Scouts be using them?
How old do you have to be to be considered part of an Indian Tribe? (1)
What things do most Americans do that offend you or your people the most? (1)
What can we do to improve our dancing? (1)
What is the most difficult thing that American Indians face today? (1)
How can we learn more about your Tribal Culture? (1)
Could the etiquette for Powwows be written down? (1)

2) What are you most interested in learning from an American Indian Drum?

How do you come up with all of the songs for the different dances? (3)
Does the drum represent or resemble anything important to your culture / significance of the drum (3)
What is a Drum made out of? (2)
What other types of music besides drum songs are there? (2)
Can women sit at the Drum? (2)
What does it take to join a drum team? (1)
How large/small does a drum team need to be? (1)
Is it hard to make a drum? (1)
What are drumsticks made out of? (1)
What are the most important rules that I should know if I want to sit at a Drum?

3) What are you most interested in learning about the American Indian culture?

What regalia are appropriate for others to wear? (3)
What is the meaning behind the Breastplate? (2)
Do certain colors mean different things – i.e. face painting or outfit colors? (1)

The following pages in this section contain all of the responses from the people that I interviewed. I learned much more than I anticipated by doing this project and I certainly hope that you will to. Please note that not all questions were answered, or the interviewees did not always have answers to all questions, in the case where no answer was given, the questions were omitted.

Interview with Dave Larson

When I was a youth in scouting I never dreamed that it would have been possible to meet someone of David Larson's status. Mr. Larson is one of the most respected individuals within the American Indian Culture in the State of Minnesota. He is the former Lower Sioux Tribal Chairman and is currently the tribe's Historian who teaches about the American Indian Culture at anyplace that will let him speak, from elementary schools to the University of Minnesota. He has also emceed and been the Head Dancer at hundreds of Powwows. Even my own family had trouble believing that such a charming and humble person could be so extensively referenced for college textbooks and PBS documentaries. I am personally very honored that he was willing to give me some time out of his very busy schedule for this project.

Questions that are a part of the original questionnaire are underlined. All others are in bold.

Please discuss the difference between the modern Indian vs. our historical image of an American Indian

It varies so much; you know we were not forced to do anything really. And since the 1970's more and more Indian people have started getting college degrees, so we're starting to get more and more professionals. There's a small number who may still farm, but mainly I guess they're blue collar workers.

Do you prefer Native American or American Indian?

Well, in Minnesota, the Indian Affairs Council in 1979, because of all of the confusion, this kind of confusion, they passed a resolution saying we chose to be called American Indians. And that was reaffirmed in 1990 or 91. So there is that; that's what I've been telling people. As a matter of fact, I was just interviewed by a college student this morning and this is what I told her. The people who speak for us have chosen "American Indian."

Do people still speak your tribal language?

It's coming back. We're now allowed to teach Dakota and Ojibwa in the university system, but it's allowed under the heading of foreign language, but we don't care. There are more and more schools with a significant Indian population that have allowed somebody to come in and do a teaching. Like Robbinsdale has a community wide Dakota and Ojibway language class that they're going to start this winter. So that's happening more and more. It was almost gone but it's coming back.

Do you feel good or insulted when you see a non-Indian portraying an Indian, even if their intentions are honorable? Usually kind of, I don't know what to call it – what's the word – not insulted, but the red flag goes up and I just say "Oh my God what are they going to say next?" It causes me some concern, I'll say that.

If this causes concern, then what is the proper way that Boy Scouts should go about teaching or learning about your culture?

I guess like you're doing now. Asking somebody to come in and speak about specific tribal groups or whatever, because a lot of what they've (Boy scouts) got is kind of mixed from the plains, and you know it's not any one group, and that's kind of the problem. Maybe having someone like you finding out what is Dakota or Lakota, and what is Anishinaabe or Ojibway, and what is something different. And then invite someone from those groups to come in. I think any group like that, somebody would be willing to come in and give some presentations about the accuracy or the lack of accuracy. As a matter of fact, once Redwood Falls found out that we knew some things about our culture, I helped I don't know how many Boy Scouts get three badges in one evening. I taught them a song and I forgot whatever else, I believe that was almost 20 years ago.

Do you think that Casinos are fair to all Indians?

I don't know what they mean by fair. I think it's good for all Indians but I don't know if it's fair. You know the ones that are doing the most profiting from casinos are the tiny reservations because they don't have that many people to share the profits with. But up until the casinos opened we had very few programs and some had no programs and the big reservations had all the programs. So it's kind of evening things out.

What is the Significance of War Bonnets and should Boy Scouts be using them?

I don't think that Boy Scouts should be using them, no, because each feather is earned. Today, a lot of people are trying to recognize people for their old time leadership and they're starting to give those to people, and we are a – like one of the best known dancers nationwide is Terry Fiddler [sp?] and his community, Cheyenne River Reservation has made him a Chief so there are people who are beginning to give recognition to at least the leaders, because "Chief" is another made up word, we don't have the word "Chief." Chief comes from the French word Chef. We say the word "etanche" [phonetic spelling- interviewer] or leader. There were different kinds of leaders for so many different parts of our culture, and I'm not sure what part Terry was. But anyhow, Terry has been recognized as having been given that leader's headdress, so I think it means a leader so that's kind of why. I know that [Scouters] can't wear regular eagle feathers [Federal law prohibits this – interviewer] but if they do wear feathers they should be aware of what it means so that if somebody asks they can explain it.

I don't think we discussed this, but what is the meaning of an eagle feather?

Oh – you've earned it. Somebody older has determined that you have done something that gives you the right to carry an eagle feather and giving you a headdress that has many eagle feathers means that you are recognized overall as a person who speaks for the people.

How old do you have to be to be considered part of an Indian Tribe?

Actually you're born into the tribal group, but when you're an adolescent is when you start becoming a warrior. Because you should fast when you're an adolescent, some time around your early teens is when you should be starting to get ready for "hanbleceya" get ready to fast and start finding your place in the tribal group. See we are not tribes, but nations that live in a tribal manner. That's why I say a tribal group.

What things do most Americans do that offend you or your people the most?

I guess assuming that they know a lot about us and talking as though they do, and then misspeaking our history. You know someone's always accusing us of being the ones who took scalps and things like that when we learned from the Europeans to take scalps, because we didn't do that before they came. That was their way of earning money, because at first they [the European bounty hunters] would get paid by turning in our whole heads, but it proved to be to cumbersome, they didn't know what to do with all of the heads that were being brought in, so they started taking just the hair. People blame us for that when in reality it was a really terrible thing that they did. And I guess that's called projecting or something like that. When you've got something really terrible, a character trait, what you do is turn it around and act as though somebody that you really dislike has that trait that you know you have. They've done a number of things like that to us. The word ÔIndian Giver" is, you know, we've never had the ability to take things back because we never had the military ability to take things away. So it's really them who've always been taking things from us and yet the word "Indian Giver" means somebody who takes things away, and we wouldn't do that

What can we do to improve our dancing?

I guess just go to Powwows and ask questions.

What is the most difficult thing that American Indians face today?

I guess ignorance, and when I say that I mean misinformation or lack of information. And people basing their treatment and a whole lot of things on misinformation.

How can we learn more about your Tribal Culture?

Just what you're doing right now. Ask the people. Instead of reading ask a human being. Stop reading and start talking. And listening. That's my thing with some friends. They ask me a question and then start talking more than I do.

Does the drum represent or resemble anything important to your culture / what is the significance of the drum?

It is the heartbeat of Mother Earth. It represents life because of the sound, and like I said, when little babies hear that it reminds them of coming into the world through their mother's womb, they've heard that sound for nine months before they came into the world. And usually most Drums are round and that represents the sacred circle. Like all things that have a beat, it shows how aware you are of what you're doing, like bells. If you are out of time or out of step or not sure what you're doing it's very noticeable, because the sound will let everyone around you know.

What other types of music besides drum songs are there?

There is the flute. Down in the Southern area there's gourds, people call them rattles, but gourds are what they choose to call them, but mainly there are flutes. I'd say that's it.

Can women sit at the Drum?

I think they shouldn't because of their moon [women's monthly cycle] When that happens you're not supposed to be around the drums because here's an example that Eugene RedDay told me. They were at a gathering out west, I forgot where it was, and they asked for an exhibition song for the Jingle Dress dancers. And George started singing the lead and his voice just totally went away, he had nothing coming out. So then Eugene tried to pick up the lead and then he lost his voice, and they shrugged their shoulders and just stopped. Then an older lady went out and looked and there was actually a women's sanitary napkin somewhere on the grounds, and obviously she said, one of the women out there was in her moon. That's what happens and she really got after the women for being out there and being a part of the center when they were on that time. That hurt the men.

(Editor's note: Typically women do NOT sit at the drum, unless it is a family drum. Some other cultures/nations might allow the women to be at the drum, but Dakota do not. Women do, however, stand behind the men and sing.)

I know that's the rule but could you briefly explain to those who might read this why that is so bad? Because that's when they're being touched by God, by the Creator, it's not a negative thing. It's so powerful that it affects men, because men will never understand what that means. So our ignorance causes us to think bad thoughts even. It's like when the White Buffalo Calf Women came- the most sacred happenings in our entire existence- and here one of the guys thought bad thoughts about the White Buffalo Calf Woman. (This is the part of the Legend of the Pipe – Sean)

Could the etiquette for Powwow's be written down?

More and more Powwows are doing just that. They're giving out fliers that explain what is appropriate and things like that.

What regalia are appropriate for others to wear? In Scouting, sometimes people do things and don't realize they're doing something inappropriate. Some are afraid of getting in trouble.

I guess just find out that they can't wear things that we consider sacred, like eagle's feathers, carry an eagle wing, or an eagle bone. But as far as a breast plate, you can get those kits almost anywhere, so as long as they don't have sacred objects on as a part of their regalia.

Is there significance to the breastplate?

It represents your armor, it covers your heart. It is the area, in your stomach where there are no bones covering it, it is protecting that part, will deflect an arrow, or a knife or a spear, when they were made of bone they would stop something like that. It represents a time.

Do certain colors mean different things – i.e. face painting or outfit colors? Should some colors be avoided?

I don't think so (that there are any colors to be avoided.) Colors do have a meaning; they have different meanings to different medicine bundles that people carry. There are the basic colors, and there are even more than we realize. Some are women's colors; some are ok for anyone to wear. Anyone can, they just need to understand what they mean.

Talk briefly about face painting and should anybody be doing it at all besides Indians?

I don't think so. I think that you have to earn the right to wear paint. A lot of our Indian people are wearing paint that they haven't earned. It is supposed to mean that you have done something. Back in the old days in time of crisis, you could look at someone's face paint and say, that guy has done this before so we can follow him, so he knows what he is doing. You could learn something about somebody's expertise by just looking at someone's facial paint. And so, you have to earn the right to wear those colors.

Colors – Some people in Scouting are referring to old books on Tee-pees and painting them all up, they have very strange colors and designs. Should Boy Scouts being doing this?

It would be easy to find someone that would give you an appropriate color. Go (to) places like an Indian Center or some of the Indian Schools and find out what color they paint theirs, and why because there are different designs; Dakota Designs, Ojibwa, and all different tribal nations. Depending on how which kind that you are trying to represent, find out from them.

What resources do you recommend for Boy Scouts?

Go to an Indian gathering (for regalia) ask people for who should they ask. –You will get someone that is reliable.

Interview with Wally Ripplinger

I can honestly say that I've meet few men as patient or as passionate as Wally Ripplinger is about the American Indian culture. Wally's story is a fascinating one. He had no clue about his American Indian Heritage until the death of his Mother, when he discovered that his Indian heritage from the Standing Rock Reservation was "covered up" in an attempt to save him from the hardships of Indian Boarding schools. He has since spent extensive amounts of time learning about his ancestry and has been given the Lakota name "Iyan Wakon", or "Holy Stone". He is also the person who nudged me in the right direction to write this book.

Do you prefer Native American or American Indian? That's a personal call. To me personally, it doesn't make any difference. In some respects I would prefer "First People." The Creator created us and put us here, so we were the first people here. Native American if you really look at that label applies to anyone who is born here. If you're born here, you're native to this land. So "First People" is in my opinion, a better thing to say.

Could you discuss the difference between the modern Indian vs. our historical image of an American Indian. The modern image is just like anyone else. We live in houses, we drive cars, we go to McDonalds, and we shop at Cub or Rainbow. Our horse is now our cars or pickup trucks. I think that one of the good things that has stayed with our people is the long hair. In the old days when the boarding school people would take our children they would cut the long hair from the boys, because to them, the Europeans, long hair is a sign of femininity. To us or to my teachings, it was a sign of masculinity. The Creator gave you that; it's part of your spirit. So why would you cut it off? It would be like cutting of one of your fingers and throwing them away. If you were to look at us on the street, aside from the long hair, we'd look like anyone else. We wear tennis shoes, we wear t-shirts, and we wear jeans. We don't run around in buckskin. One of the things that drives me crazy is when I go to a school and do talks, is when the kids do the John Wayne movie thing. You know, slapping the hand on the mouth and going "woo-woo-woo". That is not what our people did. That drives me crazy.

Do people still speak your tribal language? Yes. The Lakota language, because that is what I am, is a language that is on the comeback. In the old days when the government was taking children away and putting them in boarding schools, they [the children] were forbidden from speaking their language, they were actually punished if they got caught speaking their native language. However, the language is now making a comeback because we no longer have that fear of getting caught speaking our own language or doing our own ceremonies. That basically took place in 1976 when Jimmy Carter signed the Freedom of Religion Act.

Do you feel good or insulted when you see a non-Indian portraying an Indian, even if their intentions are honorable? Boy, that's a good question. I would have to say, personally I am not. I am not offended when someone other than a Native comes out into the Powwow arena. I'm not offended if they want to participate in our ceremonies. I think that's a good thing, and the reason that I think its a good thing is because so many Natives have the opinion that we shouldn't allow, and I'm going to use the term "White People" into our sacred circle, participate in a pipe ceremony, or our other ceremonies, and I think that's wrong. The reason that I think that's wrong is that for so many years Natives have complained about the dominant society not understanding us. And my question back would be, well how can we expect them to understand us if we don't help them understand. If we don't answer their questions or allow them into ceremonies, how can they see exactly what it is that we're doing so that they have a better understanding? I guess it would be like someone wanting to know about Catholicism and you kept them out of the church. They're not going to find out. There does need to be certain ceremonies that are strictly ours. This is my opinion, that for example, the Sundance, because that is our way of giving of ourselves to help the people. That's just my opinion. I know there are people that are not native that go, but the reason that they go is that they honestly understand what it's about. They're walking the Red Road. So that's kind of a two -edged sword. So I guess that if there are people who are walking our Red Road and they want to participate in Sundance, then I don't have a problem with it. But people that are not walking the Red Road that are just going there for curiosity don't belong there. If you're going to learn about the culture please take it seriously. This is not a game. This is a way of life that has been passed down to us for many, many generations.

Do you think that Casinos are fair to all Indians? That's a very good question and that's a fair question. My opinion is that no, they're not. I base that opinion on my teaching that you are to share. If you see people that have less than you, that are not as fortunate as you. It is our responsibility to help them. So casinos that have really fat pocketbooks and don't want to share that wealth with other native's aren't following the traditions that I was taught. We can't expect our people to get out of theses bad places, we can't expect them to get off of drugs, alcohol, get an education if we don't help them out. There are people that are on these reservations where that's all they know, they're stuck there because they don't have the wherefore all to get out. I think that it's important that we help them.

What is the Significance of War Bonnets and should Boy Scouts be using them? I'm going to answer the second part of the question first. Absolutely not should a Boy Scout ever be wearing a War Bonnet. Those eagle feathers, even the imitation ones, still project or represent a real eagle feather. It's not so much the feather as what does this mean? What does this war bonnet mean to the Native community? That War Bonnet means that this person that's wearing that is a much respected person in the Native community. Those feathers are earned, not just given to you. So if I see someone, Boy Scout, adult, Eagle Scout, whatever, wearing a full War Bonnet I get really upset because it's just not appropriate.

How old do you have to be to be considered part of an Indian Tribe? You're part of an Indian tribe from the day of birth. No dues, no fees, you're born into it.

What things do most Americans do that offend you or your people the most? The "woo-woo" thing, that really offends me. That sound is actually from the women, guys never did that. When you go to a Powwow and you hear the women doing the tripalo, where they move their tongue really fast, that's the sound your hearing. I'm offended when someone calls me a Redskin. The reason that I don't like Redskin is that when the bounty hunters came to this country from Europe, they put a bounty on not only the scalp - that was something that the Europeans brought to this country that's not a Native American thing, scalping. But the bounty hunters got greedy, so they not only took our scalps but they actually skinned our bodies like an animal. So when they took that skin in to retrieve their money, the person paying out the money said, "Oh, you've got another Redskin". That's where that term came from because they actually skinned us out like an animal. So to us, to be called that term is like calling an African American a nigger. Those two terms are unacceptable. There are a couple of other things that bother me. Being stereotyped, as all Native Americans are drunks, lazy or don't care about our families. Let's start with the families. To a Native American, that's the most important thing, how you take care your family. Being lazy, there are lazy white people, there are lazy black people, there's laziness all over the place. But, this lazy thing came from, again, the government days when they took away the mans ability to hunt, to go out and provide for our family the way our Creator taught us, so what did they have to do? They sat around and waited for the government handouts. So now were seen as lazy. We're not lazy. We go out, we work 40 – 50 hours a week, we take care of our families, and we pay our bills. As far as being an alcoholic, yeah, there are Natives that are alcoholics same as there's blacks, whites, and yellows who are alcoholics. But the majority of us are not that.

What can we do to improve our dancing? What I think they need to do is come to some wacipis, or Powwows, and watch for a while. Then at the appropriate time, depending on the style of dancing that they're interested in, for instance if they're interested in men's traditional, then they should approach a men's traditional dancer. If that dancer's got the time, sit and talk with them. What they should not do is ever try to copy a dancer's regalia. Regalia comes to dancers on their own because regalia, like you know, are unique. They could be handed down to the dancer from previous generations or come to the dancer in a vision. If they're really interested in what's going on, there are several videotapes available on how to do certain styles of dancing. In the videos they teach the proper placement of your feet, the stepping of the toe-heel, toe-heel. They also teach you how to move. They can bring a video camera to the powwow and video most anything except if an eagle feather falls or if a dancer whistles up or fans up a drum. It would be inappropriate to video the invocation [opening prayer]. But any intertribal type thing that's OK. If it's a still camera, prior to taking the photographs they should go up and ask the dancer if it's OK to take the photograph, that's just proper protocol.

What is the most difficult thing that American Indians face today? Probably the same difficulties as everyone else in the world faces. Knowing one's self. Knowing who your Creator is, and there is only one Creator in my opinion, I don't care if you call him Gitchimanii-do, Wakan Tanka, or Jesus Christ. And then I think the next thing would be to take care of those around you who are important to you.

Could the etiquette for Powwows be written down? What they need to do, when they come in is obviously find a place to sit, whether on the ground, bleachers, or whatever and then listen to the instructions from the announcer or the Arena Director so that they know when it is or isn't appropriate to move around. They should always be extremely respectful when the invocation is being said. If they're asked to stand and remove their hat they should do that. During inter-tribals, if they wish to come out into the circle, they're more than welcome to do that. We welcome anyone into the circle. They could follow behind someone, just don't touch or get to close to the bustles because those could be eagle feathers and could break. If an eagle feather goes down that's a big deal because that's a fallen warrior. About the best way to explain what they should do as far as protocol is always be aware that these people, the people that are dancing, are doing it in a spiritual way. And a lot of them might be really intense thinking about or praying about a problem while they're out there dancing. So you want to be respectful not to get in their space so to speak. Let them finish what they're doing and at the end of the song if you want to speak with them, then I don't think that anybody would have a problem with that.

What types of regalia are appropriate for others to wear? I think that if someone wants to get into or do Native dancing number one, they should go to a powwow and see just what it is they are doing. Second, get a video and watch that video [dancing videos]. Third: ask a whole lot of questions if you can. And then just don't throw something together and think that it looks cool, because everything on that regalia has got a very specific meaning. It's not something just to throw together lightly. Everything should match, it should be color coordinated, and it should have a spiritual meaning to it, if possible. If you're talking about young people getting into this, they're not going to be able to afford everything right away, because buckskin is expensive, for example. And when you come into the circle, make sure that you follow the proper protocol.

What does a breastplate mean? Nowadays everybody's got a breastplate. In the old days the breastplate was designed to slow down arrows and lances. They would slow that arrow or lance down to a point where it might penetrate, but it wouldn't be fatal. That was its significance. Most all of your men's traditional dancers will wear them. Women traditional dancers will wear something that's similar to a breastplate. Chokers as well, chokers were originally designed to protect the neck from an enemy if the enemy were quiet enough to sneak up behind you and try to slit your throat, that choker would slow the penetration down so that it wouldn't be able to cut you from ear to ear. Then you'd be able to defend yourself. So it's armor. It's got significance to it.

Do certain colors mean different things, should certain colors be avoided. I'm not aware of any colors that should be avoided. Like black, for the grandfather from the West is an acceptable color. Red, is the grandfather to the South, Yellow the grandfather to the east, and then white, [grandfather to the North]. Those are acceptable colors. Green, blue, pink are acceptable colors. Any color I think will be ok, I'm not aware of any colors that would be off limits.

Is face painting off limits, should other people be mimicking it in anyway? Face painting is absolutely, absolutely off limits, period. Face painting is something that is done- uh - it's a spiritual thing number one. Each person that paints their face is directed by their Creator to do it in that way. So if just anybody grabs a bunch of grease paint or whatever and just starts smearing it on their face, they're being extremely disrespectful to the people who have painted their faces. They're being disrespectful to the spirit, to the Creator. Face painting is something that needs to be respected. I'm 54 years old, I've got the right to paint my face, but I don't do it, because that's for me when I want to do special ceremonies. That's my spirit face, that's not for everyone to see. That's just my own personal opinion. I know that there are dancers out there that paint their face during powwow's and that's cool, because they were instructed to do that. I was instructed not to paint my face unless I'm in a certain ceremony. So DON'T PAINT YOUR FACE!

Interview with Oyate Ota

American Indian Drum

Don Renstrom (Left) has been a traditional dancer since the age of nine. He has been a singer for 15 to 20 years and is a descendant from the Wyandot, or the Huron people from the eastern great lakes area. He has been involved in Scouting for more than 20 years and has held positions such as: Scoutmaster for 10 years, Cubmaster, Assistant Coach for a BSA Varsity Team, Committee member of a Cub Pack, an Explorer Post Vigil OA member, Ceremonial Team advisor for his chapter for over six years, and Associate Lodge Advisor for over three years where he advised on issues about American Indian culture to both his Lodge and Council.

Justin Coyne (Center) Is the newest member of the Drum Group. He is an Eagle Scout who was also named "Explorer of the Year" for Viking Council in 1999. He is also a talented Traditional Dancer who has been to more powwows as a member of this Drum group than I have.

Brian Freeman (Right) has been involved in Scouting since 1983 and has held positions that include Assistant Scoutmaster, Campmaster for 17 years, Brotherhood OA member, and Ceremonial advisor for the local chapter for three years. He had also earned his Eagle Scout as a youth. Brian also has a small amount of Native American heritage and is the lead singer of a local Dakota drum group and has been in singing since 1983. He has also been asked to present at countless Scout and community functions on various topics of local Native American heritage, specializing in song and ways of life. He is extremely familiar with customs, crafts, songs, and religion of local Native Americans.

Please discuss the difference between the modern American Indian vs. our historical image of an American Indian.

BRIAN - The Native American today is forced to live in two worlds. If they're going to survive in today's culture, they can maybe live on the reservation and separate themselves from the rest of white society, and they can choose to do that, but they're not going to prosper in what today's society is, right. They're going to sit down there, they're probably going to get into poverty, and they're probably going to get into alcoholism that kind of thing, that's what happens now, because there's nothing for them to do. They can choose to forget their culture and become just like everyone else who walks the street or they can walk the two roads. And the really strong person is the one who can walk two paths like that, walk the Red Road, partake in Pipe Ceremonies, Inipis [Sweat Lodges - Sean], other ceremonies, speak their language fluent, sing, dance, whatever. And then during the day, go to work, do a job or whatever it is that you need to do to gain money so that you can feed yourself and so forth. Blend into mainstream society.

Do you prefer Native American or American Indian?

DON – I think that the Indian Affairs Council here in the State of Minnesota recognizes the name of American Indian and that's what they'd prefer.

BRIAN – The reason for that is because you and I were probably born in North America therefore were Native American vs. American Indian.

Do people still speak your tribal language?

BRIAN – Yes, but it's fading. A lot of people on the reservation speak it fluently. Now I speak mostly of the Lakota or Dakota nation and I know that of the Ojibway, a lot of people still do. Beyond that it's beyond my expertise.

DON – A lot of the peoples of the East Coast have pretty much lost theirs. Every once in a while you'd see an article where someone's trying to resurrect the language by talking to the elders. Most of them were taught of the oral tradition, there was no written language. The Cherokee were one of the few people who actually had a written language.

BRIAN – The Lakota written language came about a couple of centuries ago when the missionaries came in and started running schools and trying to convert all of the Indians over to Christianity. And there's one guy down on Pine Ridge, Beuchel, I believe is his first name, where he had worked with the Indians for so long that he had basically written an entire dictionary of the words that he had learned and he did a very good job of it.

DON – There's also a guy whose last name is Riggs who did one for the Dakota people.

BRIAN – Um hum

DON – I know that there's a few of them out there and more and more people are trying to resurrect their languages. The 7th generation is here, that was really important for them. They were supposed to have suffered for six generations. The 7th generation of the Lakota people was supposed to bring about a change better for their own people.

BRIAN – I think the problem today is that a lot of the kids are not learning their language. I know a lot of people who speak the language but they're all 40 or 50 years old or more. And very few people do I know who are in their 20's or are kids who can know the language. Unless there's an influx of teachings to try and get that reversed, and people are trying, but unless it happens the language is going to go away. If that language goes away then a lot of the culture is going to go away, the teachings and the culture.

JUSTIN – It's important when you're on the Drum, even when your not a speaker like Lakota or Dakota, a lot of the songs have elements of the language in them, like short verses. It's helpful to know what you're saying so that you can remember the song, know what songs have meaning, and use the appropriate song.

Do you feel good or insulted when you see a non-Indian portraying an Indian, even if their intentions are honorable?

BRIAN – depends on how well they do it, to me. If it looks like they know what they're doing, and they're respectful in what they do, I don't usually have a problem with it.

JUSTIN – It kind of depends on the intentions. If someone's using it to sell cars or using it in a manner that's a little different than trying to further someone's understanding of the culture.

DON – My example would be a lot of these self-proclaimed shamans trying to sell their religious practices, their Inipi ceremonies and so on for money. That would really upset me to see that, either white or Indian folks doing that. In that respect if someone wants to go out and dance or whatever, no problems, as long as they have an understanding of what they're doing. I don't have a problem with it.

BRIAN – I think at first sight it's kind of hard to make that call. You don't want to prejudge somebody if you see them out there dancing. He might actually be a good Grass Dancer out there, but maybe on the side he thinks he's got a pipe and he has Inipi in the back yard and charges to give people access to a sweat lodge or something. Sometimes that's hard to judge. That might be an extreme case but those kinds of people do exist. It really has to do with what's in their heart. If it's part of how they live and not just a hobby, then I think it's OK. This is not the kind of thing that should be a hobby. It's not the type of thing that you do for a couple of hours and then go away. It's who you are.

Do you think that Casinos are fair to all Indians?

EVERYONE – No, Not at all

BRIAN – If you haven't noticed just by looking around, the casinos are placed on various reservations. Obviously if the reservation is near a large populace like Prairie Island, or Shakopee, or something of that sort, they probably get a lot of people there and they get a lot of money, and they have small groups of people to distribute that money to. Those people become very rich while somebody out in say Pine Ridge, or Rosebud in South Dakota who don't have a casino or don't have the people to attend anyways don't make any money. Native Americans still have the highest unemployment rate and poverty rate in the country, if not the world. And there are exceptions to that with where the casinos are in relation to people.

DON – There are some casinos out there that have a payment to their people based on members who live on the reservation to get some of that money, whereas they may have some registered members who live off the reservation who won't collect. Now the Chippewa reservations up north, they don't get that kind of payment. They take that money and put it back into the reservation infrastructure. New roads, schools, whatever, and if you drive up there you'll see a lot of that new stuff being built. Then you have the have-nots. Those people who don't have gambling, the Moore Lake people, some of the people up in Northern Wisconsin, they want to create their own and the Nations that have them are trying to keep those people from getting them.

What is the Significance of War Bonnets and should Boy Scouts be using them.

DON- No, Boy Scouts should not be using them, its an achievement well beyond what they can comprehend. They should just avoid it.

BRIAN – I agree with Don. The use of War bonnets and other specific kinds of headdresses like the horned headdresses are inappropriate. When they're used in a fashion that Boy Scouts use them today, they're used as a costume. When somebody in the culture dresses up, they put on their best suit, this is not a costume, this is what they wear. It's like putting on a suit or a tuxedo when you go out to a formal affair. That's what they do when they dress up to go dance at a Powwow. The headdresses are just a costume for the BSA to use, which is what make's it inappropriate in addition to the logistics of not having the physical right to wear them.

How old do you have to be to be considered part of an Indian Tribe?

BRIAN – that's not based on your age; it's based on your lineage.

DON – Blood quantum.

BRIAN – You don't become an Indian over time. Either you are or you are not.

DON – In the state of Minnesota to be considered Indian you need to be at least half by blood quantum. If you were to try and register with a band, most of them probably wouldn't even let you register unless you were 100% and you could prove your heritage. This is true with especially the tribes that have gambling, because that's a determining factor for them, because now they've got to pay somebody else.

BRIAN – I checked with the Anishinaabe up north in White Earth where my grandmother's mother was from and they said I'd need at least 25% to register.

What things do most Americans do that offend you or your people the most?

BRIAN – You know I think what offends one person is not going to offend another. That's a really hard question to answer because what hurts you might not hurt me, might hurt the next person. One of the issues that are always discussed out there, one of the hot issues, are mascot names and derogatory names of that nature, like the Redskins, or the Braves and so forth. I know a lot of people that it bothers, and I know even more people that it doesn't. It depends so much on the individual and where they're at. I suppose not only with their lives, but how much they care about issues like this. If you were to bring this issue up to someone like Clyde Bellecourt [The local leader of AIM – the American Indian Movement] he could list off a hundred different things that upset the Indian people. Yet you take a lot of those things to a variety of average Indian people and they don't really care. It's kind of like caring about the war in Iraq when it never touches you. It something that's bad and not good, but it never touches me, I don't know anybody over there, I don't know anybody that gets killed, I go about my daily life from day to day. It all depends on your point of view. I guess the one point that I would make is if someone says their offended by something, then take them for their word and act accordingly, don't do it. It's as simple as that. If somebody doesn't like something and you're trying to be around that person then don't do that.

What can we do to improve our dancing?

JUSTIN – Go to Powwows. Watch people. Practice.

BRIAN – Everybody starts from the beginning. You're going to have to get out there, try it, make a fool of yourself from time to time. It'll happen, it's happened to everybody that's started out. But you know what? You need, to listen to people. When I started out dancing, obviously I wasn't very good. But who is when they start out? I had people come up to me in the dance arena, old grandmothers or whoever, and they would say, "Hey, loosen up a little bit, bend your knees, dance this way or that way." They'd give me some advice, and they didn't know me. They'd see me out there and think, "jeez, he's trying, but he doesn't really get it". Don't take it in a bad way; they're trying to help you do better.

DON – Relax, listen to the music, and then your feet will follow to the music. You know there's a reason for the steps that we do. A lot of times you'll see people kind of do a two step. When man was put on this earth, he wasn't quite sure when he was first put here if that earth was going to hold. So the first step has always been kind of tentative, touch it and see if it will hold my weight, then Boom. There's meaning behind everything that we do. That's just one that I was told.

JUSTIN – If you go and watch powwows, take a look at the dancers overall in the class that you're trying to be in. It should be obvious to you who is a good dancer and who is a bad dancer, you can tell this just by looking at them. And then see what the good dancers are doing and try to copy that style. If they're doing acrobatic moves or they're acting more reserve, try to keep that in mind with the style your doing.

What is the most difficult thing that American Indians face today?

JUSTIN – I would say probably poverty, because the United States sort of came in and told the Indians, "Hey this is our land now and the way that you've been living your life is not really going to work anymore and you're going to have to play by these new rules." Some of the people haven't really been able to make it in mainstream society because they haven't had the education, or the skills, they don't have all the money in the family that other people might have. They've had to start over from square one and learn how to live in a different society. So a lot of people are very poor and obviously it's hard to improve your lot in life when you don't have any money.

BRIAN – And from that poverty is where you see a lot of the alcoholism that's rampant on the reservations and the big cities. It isn't something they asked for, it's something that any society or person goes through when they're down and out and they don't have what they need to make it in today's society. It's a struggle when you don't have any marketable skills and you can't hold a job that pay's enough to put food on the tableÉ

Sean – You work at Red Lobster

BRIAN- (laughs) you work at Red Lobster and you get really depressed. You need to get a new job.

DON – I think in addition to the poverty there's also a lack of pride in their history because I think that for so long they were told that it was bad to be an Indian. They were put in boarding schools and taken away from their parents, and not just 100 years ago, 20 years ago. We all know people that were taken from their parents, put in a boarding school, were forbidden to speak their language or doing anything that was in anyway related to their culture. Their hair was cut, their clothes were thrown away, and they were given clothes that mainstream white American would have worn. They were just really treated like second-class citizens. Matter of fact, until 1932 they weren't even considered citizens of this country even tough they've been here for I think, the historical record says, 12,000 years.

BRIAN – It wasn't until 1976 that Native American's were even allowed to legally practice their own ceremonies. It's amazing, but that didn't stop a lot of people. They're kind of like speak easies, they would have their ceremonies off someplace where other people didn't see them, but they still did it. Those are the cultures left today in this country that are still surviving, the ones that kept it up and practiced it despite the repression over the years. The ones who succumbed to that aren't here anymore.

How can we learn more about your Tribal Culture?

DON – A powwow would be a great place to start because a powwow is not just necessarily a dance. It's a gathering of families and friends. It helps rekindle friendships, people find out whatÔs happened since the last time they've been together. A good arena announcer at a powwow will actually tell you what's going on, and actually crack a bad joke once in a while.

BRIAN – More and more of them will, yeah.

DON – That's a good place to start is a powwow because it's designed, not so much the contest powwows, but the more traditional powwows are really a good place to learn. People, if you ask somebody, might be more willing to give you an answer, if you have questions and you ask them in a proper way.

BRIAN – Starting out at powwows I think is a perfect approach to it. Get comfortable at a powwow, and you don't have to do this the first time you're there, but go to a variety of powwows and you'll start to recognize the same people at the powwows. Come up to them and ask them a simple little question about this or that. Don't overwhelm them. They'll probably walk away if you start asking a million questions. Try to strike up a friendship with a number of people. Maybe they'll kind of take you on and mentor you a little bit and teach you some things of value.

DON – Oh yeah, if somebody comes up to you and tells you that you have a great outfit, don't shake their hand.

Sean – (laughs) I know you're making fun of me but you've got to explain to everyone why.

DON – One of the things in a lot of the cultural areas of the American Indians is you always give because what you get back, you get back two fold. So if somebody comes up and says, "Hey, that's really nice" a traditional Indian would actually give that to you because you thought so much of it. And a shake of the hand actually seals the bargain. So be careful about what you say about others people's outfits while shaking their hand.

American Indian Drum Questions

How do you come up with all of the songs for the different dances?

DON – Many of the songs are inspired, some are stolen, that happens. Some are old, some are brought from other areas of the country where they like a song but they don't know the language, so they come back and have a lot of vocables that they use in place of the words because the music inspired them when they were there. Some are written for someone special, someone they wanted to honor, a location that inspired them, a great deed, or again a person that they wanted to honor. So there are many reasons for the songs.

BRIAN – I think that covers a lot of it. Like you say, there are a lot of songs that are taken from other nations, people like them and take them. You hear a lot of songs with words and without words. A lot of the ones without words came about from, often times, one group or person may hear a song sung by another nation, and they like the song but they didn't know the language, so they would take that tune and just sing that tune even though they didn't know the words. Some songs are created. There's a flag song that the Anishinaabe people sang that was actually written by the Arikara people.

DON – One thing, be careful of some of the songs that are sung, because some of them are owned by societies, and families and they [the songs] belong to them. If you're going to use something like that they need to know that, you need to ask them permission to be able to sing it, or there are some pretty nasty consequences, often times. Most songs generally are sung for, or given to the people, but there are those songs that are family or society songs and they need to stay with those folks, unless you have their permission.

Does the drum represent or resemble anything important to your culture / what is the significance of the drum?

DON – We're taught that the drum is a heartbeat; it's like the spiritual center of the Universe. It has power; it brings people to it, often times more than you know. It also owns property, and needs to be treated as a spiritual entity.

BRIAN – The Drum is quite often considered the heartbeat of the nation. And I use that term for a couple of reasons. You know obviously the pounding and the sound of the drum sounds like a heartbeat. And as Don also mentioned the Drum also has a spirit. Of all the things out there, living and non-living, the drum is considered a living entity, even though you and I may look at it and say "Hey its made out of wood and hides". Without the Drum, there would be no Powwow; there would be no song or reason for someone to dance. The drum has it's own voice. It has the power to bring everyone together, that's probably one of its most powerful attributes. It brings a group of people together, sometimes a group of stranger's together to sing at that drum. And then it brings the dancers to that Powwow circle to dance and have a good time to that music. And it also brings the spectators there to see all of that together. So the drum is really one of the most important, symbolic things of the culture.

What is a Drum made out of?

DON – A lot of the powwow drums out there are actually just a bass drum form an orchestra or band. The nice thing about those is that they are generally synthetic and they don't have problems with things like the weather. Like if they get moist or cold they don't go flat. Some of them are pieces of wood that are steamed and formed around that round circle shape that we have. Others are like a barrel that's made from staves, and they're just either glued or banded together. On top of that we'd go with rawhide. The rawhide varies by the user's choice. Some people prefer elk, some cowhide, some moose, just whatever that person would like to use; knowing full well that this is a natural product of course, this is a skin of an animal and there are inherent problems with it. One problem that I could mention is the fact that when it gets moist, it goes flat because basically this hide is just stretched over this hoop. As it dries it tightens and shrinks. As it moistens it loosens up. There are other drums out there, the Iroquois people have a water drum, but I'm not familiar with that. Some of these drums are actually made from hollowed out tree trunks. People of the southwest have those and some are made from a hollowed out cottonwood log.

BRIAN – I think that there are two main distinctions if you look around the powwow circuit of the drums out there, and Don kind of covered it, but I just wanted to point it out. The first kind of drum he talked about was the big bass drum it is not a traditional drum. The second kind of drum that he talked about that is made with a rawhide head, that's a traditional drum. And by that it means that's generally how drums used to be made. Especially if it's hollowed out of tree trunks with hides stretched over that. Today with non-traditional drums such as a bass drum they're easier to get a hold of and there are advantages to that. The Ojibway people, you rarely find them with a bass drum and they have a slightly different style of drum, they have a much more ornate drum where they have often times sides coming up around the drum in the four different directions and they'll have colors hanging from them. So every culture, every nation out there has a different kind of Drum in the way it's made.

DON – Absolutely, the Eskimo people, the northwest coast people, their drums are different yet that the plains type or the southwest type. The Eskimo people would use sealskin. They'd stretch it in a big hoop and strike it; it would not be a drum in the sense that we understand it.

BRIAN – It's more like a handheld Drum like what we would find in ceremonies.

JUSTIN – Some drums in the southwest are made out of pottery too, and like you said some had water in them.

What other types of music besides drum songs are there?

DON – Traditionally, a flute would have been an instrument that a man would have that he would use to court his future wife. Understand that a lot of theses cultures were nomadic societies, like you or I would have an organ or piano; they couldn't have those large instruments. They had to have things that they could carry with them easily. A flute would have been, traditionally would have been something used for courting; only men could own it at that time. Recently they've used it for medication and just because it sounds good. There's also rattles out there that the Anishinaabe women would use to sing behind the drum, the women would sing behind the men and have a rattle and shake the rattle in time with the music.

BRIAN – In the south, like in the Oklahoma area, they have what's called a gourd dance. And that's used with simple rattles. That's a style of dance really but that's also sung to drum, but that's a southern style of singing. There are two general styles, southern and the northern. Southern is a little slower, a little bit lower key. The northern style is faster.

JUSTIN – Also within the powwow drum within the Midwest, there's several different styles that the drums play. One noticeable thing that you can hear is a round dance song, which has more of a syncopated beat as opposed to a standard intertribal Grass dance. A Grass Dance song is more on the beat, quarter note.

DON – There's also a parade beat that they use with an Honor song, like a Flag song. There are a number of different styles of music out there. And the ceremonial songs are different and you will typically not hear those unless you're a part of that ceremony.

Can women sit at the Drum?

DON – In the traditional Lakota/Dakota culture, no. One of the reasons we're taught is that a women's voice was put into the drum and for a woman to sit at the drum and sing would be taking her gift back. There are exceptions, of course and I'm speaking solely on the Lakota Culture, is that if it's a family drum, then women can sit at the drum. They'd have a right to do that. Again, there are over 500 different cultural areas, 500 different recognized tribes if you will, or First Nations. Each one of those has its own distinct cultural things that it can do or can't do. Both women and men have their own distinct places in society. This cultural area, women have traditionally not been allowed to sit at the drum.

JUSTIN – Often women will come up behind the drum, behind the singers who are sitting at the drum and sing with the singers. And they contribute the higher pitched voices and are a good compliment to the men sitting around the drum.

DON – Generally the women will never sing the lead line to a song, and they're supposed to sing an octave higher than the men sing. Let me tell you something. There are Grandma's out there that will inspire you to sing better. I've been at powwows and I've had Grandmas behind me come up, because it was a good song. And they have sung, and literally forced me if you will, to sing better. Because they sounded so good I wanted to make sure that my voice sounded better. So it's an inspiration for the men to sing better.

What does it take to join a drum team?

BRIAN – That term itself is inappropriate. I have never meat a drum team. There are singers who sing on a drum. There may even be a group of people that sing. But a drum team is a term that Boy Scouts must have made up. It's the same as a dance team; it's a group of people getting together wanting to practice the hobby of being Native American. As far as singing at a drum and being a part of a drum group, I guess the most appropriate way to join a group like that is to be asked. If you show an interest in singing at a drum, and maybe you want to hang around a drum at a powwow and it seems really interesting. You enjoy what they're doing and how they sound and you'd like to do the same. I guess your best bet is to make friends with one or two people in the group and if they seem to think that you are truly interested, they may ask you to come sit at the drum and sing. Unless you are a veteran singer and they know who you are, it's going to be looked down upon if you come over and sit at drum and just start singing, particularly if you don't know the song and you don't know what your doing over there.

DON – One thing that is really important is that Scouts don't just get together and go "Yep, we're going to be a drum team." A lot of us have been around for 15, 20, 30 years and more. Someone there has to take the responsibility for everyone else at the drum. They're responsible for all of the actions or inactions of the drum whether it be appropriate or not. They also need to have good understanding of the language of whatever culture that they're going to be singing, or the style that they're going to be singing from. There's a great responsibility placed on someone carrying that drum. For the Boy Scouts or anybody for that matter, to have a team is really inappropriate. The drum at best is loose association of people that like to sing together occasionally and they may sing with a number of other drums.

Sean – Just for clarification, what term would you prefer instead of Drum Team.

BRIAN – Drum or Drum group is how people reference it. When you go to a Powwow, they don't ask the drum team over there to sing. They say, "Hey, Masakute you got the next song, go for it." It's based on the name of that drum.

DON – You are the host drum, not the drum team. It's just a European concept I guess; everyone wants to be part of a team.

How large/small does a drum group need to be?

BRIAN – there's really no steadfast rule. But, if you were to go bring your drum to a powwow to sing, I think that the powwow committee and/or the Arena Director really wants to see four or five people at that drum. There are some people out there who are veteran singers of 30 or 40 years, they show up with themselves and the drum and they sit down and sing, and then a bunch of other sings will come over and help and then they've got a group. Generally that's OK; it all depends on what the MC has to say at that powwow. But if you're going to do the drum any justice, you're really going to need a number of people at the drum so that you sound good. That song needs to be sung the best that it can so that people feel good about it. If you're out there hacking the song up and there are two of you singing it and you can't sing well, then you don't deserve to be there.

JUSTIN – There's some problems with room around the drum. Generally you can't get more than 12 or 15 people around, because it's just uncomfortably crowded.

BRIAN – That's true.

DON – And you may also run across the terms open and closed drums. If you go to a powwow an open drum means that visitors are welcome to sing. A closed drum means just that, we have a group here and you're not invited. You need to know that.

BRIAN – There are certain people out there and I count myself among them who are drum hoppers. There are certain people that like to jump around from drum to drum. And if the drum that is receiving them is ok with that and the MC is ok with it, that's fine. It's a great way to build experience, but I certainly wouldn't try it if you don't know any people at that drum, you don't know their style, or you don't know their songs. It's a great way to learn, however if you're comfortable doing that and they're comfortable having you.

JUSTIN – Some of the closed drums are people who have been together for a number of years and they have CD's out and are trying to sell these CD's and thus want to sound very good to people. That might be one of the reasons they might not want you to sit down there.

Is it hard to make a drum?

BRIAN – It depends on how good you are with woodworking and craftsmanship I suppose.

DON – Yeah, absolutely. I mean I have formal education in cabinet making. So I guess it can be hard, yes, very hard.

BRIAN – Like any craftwork there's skill involved in it. If you're going to do beadwork or quillwork or make a deer hair headdress [roach], or make a drum it requires a certain amount of craftwork and a certain amount of knowledge about how those things are done properly.

What are drumsticks made out of?

BRIAN – The favorite today is getting the actual stick from those old bicycle flags. You guys are probably to young to remember those, but the ¼ inch fiberglass rods that you can get at the hardware store. The heads of the drumsticks are made out of anything from lambs' wool to fake fabric that sounds nice and looks nice. Handles are often times made out of leather, or whatever else happens to be comfortable to wrap a stick with.

JUSTIN – The shafts are sometimes decorated with ribbons, or beadwork, or colored electrician's tape.

BRIAN – The beadwork on the other hand is kind of interesting because as soon as you hit the edge of the drum, that beadwork shatters. So I wouldn't suggest that.

DON – Some people bead the handles.

What are the most important rules that I should know if I want to sit at a Drum

JUSTIN – Listening to the lead singer is a really important one. They're the person who's running the show. They're kind of like a conductor. If they tell you your off beat, or are singing to early, that's their job to tell you.

DON – The most important thing is to ask. Just don't walk up and assume that they're going to let you sit there. Ask.

BRIAN – Just pay attention to the signals if they do allow you to come and sit at that drum. You'd better have an understanding of what the drum is all about what the songs are about even what kind of songs they're singing and why they're singing that song so that it's appropriate. You have to have that kind of understanding. And you have to pay attention. If they're going to stop that drum and your not going to stop, you're going to mess up the drum for everybody and they're not going to like that. If you're traditional, for messing up a song like that, you need to pay the drum. That's just the way it is.

What regalia are appropriate for others to wear?

BRIAN – I guess if you're trying to fit the style of dance, if you're trying to be a traditional, or grass dancer, or whatever it might be. Generally, and you're going to have to help me with this guys, you can create and wear, with the following exceptions. Things like eagle feathers, or hawk feathers or owl. Usually you don't have the right to wear; you have to earn the right to wear some of those special items.

Sean – Would imitations feathers be fine? [Imitation feathers are turkey feathers painted to look like hawk or Eagle feathers]

BRIAN – Imitations would be fine.

DON – One thing, non–Indian people need to understand that there is a federal law that prohibits you from owning those feathers and body parts of birds of prey. I think that the fine for being caught with them is about $5,000 dollars. Those of us who have been given those feathers probably don't show them out in public because of that.

BRIAN – There are some things, even among the Native American dancers out there, don't pay attention to anymore. For example, the deer hair headdress, they have a spreader in it, and usually they will have one or two feathers in that spreader, if that's the style that they're using. Those feathers have representation. You have the right to wear one or two feathers if you have achieved certain major accomplishments in your lifetime, accomplishments like graduating from college, or getting married, serving in the armed forces, or something significant on that order. You'll see a lot of dancers out there with two feathers and they're only 16 years old, they couldn't have possible done those things yet. Now Native Americans and non-Native Americans alike do that kind of thing, but those are some of the old traditions that are starting to fade because a lot of people don't know about them. Things like the feather fan for women as far as the origin of who should carry those. There are different traditions for certain kinds of things.

DON – The best compliment that you could be given as a Non-Indian person is that they can't see you; you blend in. Non-Indian people they have to work harder on that outfit to blend in, to be accepted. So the best compliment that you could be given is "I can't see you."

Do certain colors mean different things – i.e. face painting or outfit colors?

DON – First of all, face painting is totally inappropriate. There are reasons for the face paint thatÉ

BRIAN – Well, it's a warrior thing.

DON – In order for you and I to wear it, there's a couple of things that need to happen. One – you need to have had a vision. Second– is that a holy person, somebody, an elder told you that this is what you need to do.

JUSTIN – That they may go to powwow's and see people who have face paint andÉ

DON – The –The colors may mean family things that they do. Red on the forehead may mean that that person may be following the red road. Black may mean that he's in mourning or he's killed an enemy. By no means, anyone, unless they have been given the right to paint their face, should paint their face. Boy Scouts should never, ever do this under any circumstances.

BRIAN – I don't think so far as a general outfit that colors matter so much, but there are uses for various colors out there. A good prime example would be the guy walking around out there with a red ribbon shirt on which tells the women that he's looking for love.

DON – Gee, I wonder who did that?

JUSTIN – There also may be some consideration like if you are a traditional or straight dancer, you're not going to want a neon pink outfit, whereas a fancy dancer might.

DON – Again this goes back to the previous question where the best compliment given is that they don't see you. You blend in.

BRIAN – There are other uses for colors that apply to ceremonies, this is something that again you shouldn't be doing, but if you are ever invited to go see various ceremonies like Inipi or Sundance as such. You'll see reds, and black, and yellows, and greens. Depending on the location, where the colors are, in the teachings. They have different meanings. I learned the color group from Grandpa Pete out in Pine Ridge at Sundance. Where he used white for the North, which stood for snow. Red for the south, this stood for warmth. Yellow in the east, this stood for the rising sun. And black in the west for the sunset. Now if you travel over to Sisseton [S.D.], you'll find that they refuse to use the color black because to them that means death. So the teachings are different even in the Lakota culture with respect to that.

Interview highlights with Valerie Larson

I was lucky enough to interview Valerie Larson, wife of David Larson whose interview appears ea